THE RICH MIX- Episode 7: Dr Cameron Jones

Hey guys, it's Rich here from The Rich Mix and it's my pleasure to have Dr Cameron Jones on on The Rich Mix today. We've known each other for a few years now and I'm really excited to have you on. So welcome Cameron, thanks for coming.

 

It must be about 10 years now that we've known one another. I know, it's been a long time, it's been a good relationship, it's been a lot of fun times. It certainly has.

 

So how have you been? How's life treating you?

 

Yeah, really well. Obviously, I think I've been running my core business, Biological Health Services, now for well over a decade. So I understand this business, I understand this industry and amongst all that, I certainly have made forays into different areas of environmental health and occupational hygiene, which we might get an opportunity to talk about this afternoon. But I'm in your hands, ask me any questions you like.

 

Yeah, well let's get back to it. So, you know, your journey into, like tell us about that journey and getting into how did Biological Health Services first started, you know, and what inspired you to start your own business?

 

Well, that's going to be a long answer, so I'm going to be succinct here.

Obviously, when I, well like everything in life, it usually starts with your childhood in a way. Certainly, my interest in biology and biological sciences and everything to do with botany and zoology and that sort of thing was in a sense stimulated because, I'll answer this and I'll give you some background to make this context dependent and sensitive and so that the listeners can understand this. I was an only child, my father passed away soon after I was born.

 

That meant that my mother was responsible as the sole breadwinner. She was fortunate in the sense that my father, her husband left her a small block of flats or apartments and essentially I spent every single holiday with her and every single weekend going back and forth to the flats to pick up the rent, deal with maintenance issues and every single holiday there would be repairs to be made, hot water systems to be changed over, ducts to be cleaned, all that sort of thing and so around about 21, when I was 21, she sold those flats and I breathed a sigh of relief. I didn't need to go back into people's properties and I thought, look, I'll not have to do anything in real estate for the rest of my life.

 

I'm absolutely sick of this. However, when I was 10, she thought it might be a great idea for her son, her only son, to learn a second language. So off we packed, left Australia and went off to France.

 

Now, excellent experience. I highly recommend it to others to try to pick up another language. However, as a nine-year-old, it's certainly difficult.

 

Certainly, there's none of this how do you feel about the pressures and the difficulties of trying to cram new words and concepts and cultures into your head. It's not so much how do you feel, it's like, listen, you can't say a word, you better learn quickly. So memorization was the key.

 

Memorization comes first, in a sense, and then you try out these new phrases and skills. Certainly, the curricula in Europe is head and shoulders different to Australian curricula where, in a sense, the teachers in Australia will give you some assistance until you get things right. Certainly, in Europe and when I was going through school there, there was an intense focus on memorization and rote repetition.

 

Now, there are a couple of schools of thoughts about whether or not people understand what they're learning. But if you are given large volumes of information and expect it to stand up the next morning and repeat that and then have a discussion about it, it certainly teaches you to quickly assimilate large amounts of information. And so biology turned out to be the only subject that I gravitated towards instantly because all the textbooks had coloured pictures and also the words were printed right next to the picture.

 

So it made it really quite easy for me to come to terms with this. And hence, biology just happened to end up being my best subject. I wanted to do medicine, but I was a bit of a perfectionist.

 

I was focusing on my French and biology in upper high school. So I started off doing a science course with the intention of switching over to medicine. But the reality is that I just absolutely loved the science degree and I never really looked back.

 

So how I came to set up this business was essentially due to these childhood and family factors that influenced me and influenced my thinking about what it is to need to find a roof over your head and find a place to live that you could call home for maybe a period of months or years. And I'm very familiar with that requirement for people that that's a fundamental need in life. And the amenity and habitability and safety of that property is also paramount and it influences how people enjoy their properties and how they conduct themselves and the quality of life that they're going to experience.

 

And then I was at university, I stayed on at university, I got my first jobs were at university, apart from part time bar work and that sort of thing. And I thought, well, look, this is just fantastic. I'm surrounded by other people who are a little bit different.

 

Most academics are unusual for one reason or another. And they usually have high levels of curiosity and highly developed analytical skills and information retrieval skills. And so this environment suited me perfectly for nearly two decades.

 

One of the problems about working in an institution or a corporate or any large business is that there is the core work and then there are the politics that play within an organisation. And I have to say that the politics with a university are somewhat concerning because after you get your higher degree, wherever you decide to step off, there is an expectation that you will now put your analytical and reasoning skills to grant writing, in addition to the publications that you're probably doing for your own core research plus teaching commitments. So, you know, 15 years into university, most people are essentially writing for a living to secure grant funding to essentially support their position.

 

And our university, like every other university and other large corporates, goes through restructures in attempts to shed fat from the system and improve productivity and output. And our university was not dissimilar to others. And we had one restructure too many.

 

And I thought, really, this is not the place for me to be any longer. And several older academics that were at that point, 30 plus years older than me, said to me that if you are intending to go out and do something in applied science, really now's the time to do it. Otherwise, you'll be stuck here for the rest of your life.

 

And when we had one restructure too many, I thought, look, I'm out of here. I need to do something where I have more control over the direction of the research, where this research will be applied, and really the sticky end when this interfaces with people in the public, which at the end of the day, is the whole point of science, delivering solutions to existing problems that haven't been overcome properly yet. So that's when I chose to leave the university.

 

Yeah. And start your own business.

 

Yep.

And it was, would have been very challenging in the beginning, getting work. No, it wasn't at all. Surprisingly, I've set up other businesses before and since that have been a lot more difficult.

 

But in terms of the identification and risk management of water damaged buildings and their impact on mould, and how that mould then has the potential to cause illness in people, it worked from the word go. So I set up a website and calls started to come in. Yeah.

 

Essentially, it hasn't stopped.

 

Yeah. And here you are still there.

And how do you balance those roles, like as a scientist in your business, and as an entrepreneur as well?

 

Running a business, the focus is on cash flow. Yeah. And from the founder's viewpoint, the focus is on excellent service delivery, and developing comprehensive solutions to people's problems.

 

But as an entrepreneur, it really is all about cash flow. So the thing that bothers me, no end, is that whilst I still read the academic literature, essentially on a daily basis, my contribution to the academic literature is somewhat limited now. I don't have the capacity to quarantine one or two months or three months to do seven-day viability assays on cultures that I used to love doing.

 

And some of the beautifully elegant research that is possible now with molecular techniques, essentially, I just don't have the time to do it. So I look on lovingly to what I read in the literature, and stay up to date on my core focus of service delivery that we provide to clients, and make sure that I'm aware of what the academic literature and industry literature is saying about that. But some of the much more interesting emerging research, I just have to look on from a distance, read it, synthesise it, and take something away from it.

 

But my ability to contribute to that is negligible to zero at this point, because I just can't wear too many hats. Yeah, I know, it's very hard.

 

Because that's the next thing I was going to say, is like, what are some of your key challenges that you're facing in building and growing your business in this current niche, like in this niche field?

 

Well, look, that's certainly true.

 

I guess it comes down to the range of different client types or, you know, it's very common to talk about an avatar, your ideal client. For me, I certainly have a number of ideal clients. Certainly, where I started this business, I thought that I would be focusing principally on the residential tenancy market, and larger scale commercial problems.

 

I did not realise that there was such a massive problem with water damage and mould affecting every single building type. It is not restricted to tenancy stock, it is not restricted to commercial. So it's essentially any building anywhere has the potential to age, decay, and have either known or unknown or hidden, or historical building defects, which contribute to conditions which allow that building to take on moisture and water, which over time, automatically turns into mould.

 

And if people don't know that they've got those problems, well, then they have a mould reservoir. And certainly for a percentage of individuals, this becomes a toxic environment for them to live and work in. So I guess the key challenges here are balancing the individual needs of some people who their overarching concern is, will spending one more day or night in this property cause irreversible harm to my health? And those individuals usually are frightened due to new onset symptoms, which they have a hazy understanding of where they might have been exposed.

 

Or they're not even sure that it is related to mould. The underlying fears about their own physiology, the impact of adverse health on maintaining a job, paying for bills, paying for a mortgage, raising a family, having positive interpersonal relationships with partners and other family, all of those emotional and psychological and psychosocial factors are at play with almost every client I come into contact with. The other group of people are already in disputes and anyone that's had a dispute or has participated in a dispute resolution or a civil litigation or even criminal litigation would be aware about the fundamental requirement for data collection and evidence gathering and the analysis of that evidence.

 

And so many of my clients are currently going through dispute resolution and have a range of different claims and counterclaims that they're dealing with. I certainly underestimated the alacrity with which paid consultants often take the mantle of their client's case with a real disconnect between the available facts on the table. And there are individuals that will write to an agenda and that was unexpected.

 

Certainly in the scientific realm, it's rarer for research to be done with an overarching goal in mind and to not acknowledge alternative views and hypotheses and interpretations. With legal arena or dispute cases, there are often a lot of valid claims, a lot of red herring claims, and then just a lot of suggested problems.

 

Is that more rental-type properties?

 

All of them.

 

Look, if it's a builder-developer-occupier issue, the builder's neck is on the line, but so is the developer. And so if a prospective purchaser purchases a home, for example, off the plan and then discovers that Mould is a problem during construction, well, obviously, the first point of call is the builder who may be doing the construction on that point in time. But both the builder and the developer have a responsibility to the occupier, and this often involves banks and all sorts of other stakeholders as well.

 

So the moment you identify building-specific factors and mould, usually people have been looking and watching at the problem or they've just missed it completely. So the key challenges around here are just being very aware that what people tell you is often a summary of what they consider the key points that are most easy to digest. And often what keeps people and families up at night is the worries that they have about their own health, the health of their family and children.

 

Will their grandchildren come over and visit if they've got a water stain and mould problem affecting the carpet in the unused bedroom that once their own children, but now they've got grandchildren? So there's a huge emotional component to people's concerns that often is lost completely when people bullet point their historical explanation for their case. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, no, crazy.

 

That's awesome. So the next question I'm going to ask you is, can you just discuss some of the most significant discoveries and breakthroughs that you've ever had in your work? Because essentially the work I do now is all applied science in that we are a process lab in the sense in that we go out and either take samples from suspect properties and sites and analyse them ourselves and produce reports for the clients or other occupational hygienists and mould remediators or insurers will take samples themselves and send those in for us. At the end of the day, we're always going around in circles.

 

Is the airspace contaminated or are surfaces contaminated? If they're both contaminated, how does this impact on habitability within that dwelling? So the breakthroughs that I guess we have made focus on different aspects of those issues. And in all cases, usually I have followed up with peer reviewed academic publications discussing aspects and elements of the existing standards that are used and vigorously litigated around in Australia to illuminate different aspects of that writing so that it can be practically contextualised and practically implemented in the real world and understood. Because at the end of the day, all of these standards have to be interpreted.

 

And so usually with identifying a risk and collecting samples, you need to interpret that risk relative to the site and other factors which may be very difficult to quantify and really come under the qualitative data, which is the historical issues and the ones that are a little bit less, a little bit more than this or that within the situation. So the breakthroughs really come down to my increasing understanding of the nuances of sentences within standards and how the standard can be practically implemented in the real world without bias for any of the stakeholders that are involved, so that everything can become essentially quite transparent. So I'm quite proud of the fact that even though there was a number of years where I did no publication, I've certainly been trying to publish over the last seven or eight years on the mould arena explicitly to provide review documents and academic quality context around these issues.

 

So I'm probably most proud of that.

 

Yeah, awesome. Fantastic, mate.

 

And how do you stay head of the curve in terms of innovation and technology?

Because that's probably evolving within the industry as well.

 

The industry groups around water damage and restoration are useful. They run a number of Facebook groups and user groups.

 

Because they're quite commercially focused, there's a lot of discussion about practical tools and skills that are used and equipment that's used. So that's pretty easy to acquire. I tend to go to PubMed, MedArchive, other open source repositories to regularly manually go through keywords that are related to my industry to ensure that I'm up to date.

 

The same with standards. You've got to review the publishing bodies that sell the standards to look for updates because they are updating them regularly enough. And, you know, these are written in a legalese manner and there is often clauses or changes which quite significantly influence your interpretation of how to apply that standard in the real world. So I guess it's just attention to detail.

 

I'm a detail guy. So for me, it's harder to teach others to do this. Yeah, definitely.

 

So going to my next question. So as an entrepreneur, what strategies have you found most effective for marketing your services and expanding your client base? Obviously, you've been around for a long time. So you're getting a lot of referrals would be a big part of your business.

 

Um, yeah, you're right. In a sense, I am not the type of business which sells you a Big Mac and then says, would you like fries with that? Yeah. When I set the business up, we attempted to do analytical services and some remediation.

 

So there was a period of time for a couple of years where I had a better understanding of the practical skills that mould remediators would do. But even then, I needed to engage the services of other companies that were already doing that as a commercial endeavour. And the we no longer do that.

 

We only focus on the scientific analysis and lab analysis and writing expert reports leading towards recommendations and then leading towards scope of works. But those scope of works really need to be written by the mould remediator. So our lab workers is identical to what you would obtain from a pathologist if a medical doctor sent a patient down to a pathology lab to have some scans and maybe some swabs taken, that lab will produce a report, send that to the doctor, the doctor interprets that and tells the patient in the same way we produce lab reports based on the site specific factors that are available at the time if we go and do the assessment or and eventually submit the report, which is then to be used as a guidance document by the remediators to develop their own scope of works to make sure that they're going to cover everything.

 

So in terms of marketing specifically towards this, I guess, obviously, we have a website and a business name, which is Biological Health Services. And we use the website, we use all the social media associated with those names. But when I obtained my PhD, I immediately registered the domain name drcameronjones.com because it's commonplace for academics to be referred by their name or surname.

 

And it's like, you know, Jo Bloggs developed this or wrote this in 1995. And these are her research group have expanded and now they're considered the leaders in that school of thought around that thing. So it was commonplace to consider scientists in your little niche, there'd be a pecking order.

 

And it really was about the quality of the thought, the reach of the ideas, the connection is them with other ideas. And, you know, the bigger the thinking, the better the quality of the publication in a sense. So I set up drcameronjones.com at the same time as Biological Health Services.

 

And I've used both of them, because essentially, I sell quality solutions, accurate analysis, comprehensive testing in an unbiased way, without appealing to someone who's paying you. You can't misuse science. And I'm a harsh critic of individuals who, in my opinion, maybe or might be attempting to use science to further an argument, which really has poor quality premises to do with it.

 

So the staying ahead of the curve to innovate really means that I have to ensure that my integrity is maintained at all times, and that in a sense that that is verifiable by others, as if I weren't there. But I do use both domains to emphasize to the client either existing or foreseeable clients, that there is someone with a good, strong scientific background, who is going to cast their eye onto your problem, and give you a truthful viewpoint, using the existing evidence, and yet is also capable of looking at the alternative or reverse arguments to see whether they're applicable as well. So it comes down to how you choose to approach life and approach making money.

 

We would prefer to turn away work where there is a deliberate request to maybe do something that is not ideal, which certainly crops up in residential tenancy all the time. Not so much in the other clients. But that's really how I approach the whole issue of marketing.

 

I definitely use myself and my business to secure work. Yeah, fantastic. Thank you.

 

And so next thing, like, what advice would you give a young person, you know, want to go to uni and want to get into enter the field of biological health? You know, what advice would you give them? Certainly, if you wanted to do anything in the health and public, public health policy arena, it's you have you've got to get some sort of foundational skills. Now, I'm not fussed whether that's university or vocational education, or even learning within a company. You've got to get skills, unique combination of theoretical and practical skills.

 

Theory won't cut it in the real world. Similarly, practical skills in the real world won't will only take you so far. Eventually, someone will point out something that has been written somewhere else and probably litigated against.

 

And there'll be fine, dense detail in there. If you're not capable of recognizing that you will fall over at some point, commercially. So you have to get a practical foundation skill in something, it better be in something that you like.

 

Yeah. And then you have to make a decision. Are you a decision maker? Or do you work better in a team?

 

If you're a decision maker and can quickly answer most questions or think you've got the answer to most questions, entrepreneurship may be perfect for you.

 

But if you hesitate or want consensus or confirmation by your peers, yeah, or everything, you better work in a team for a while until you understand the systems within systems that are occurring and can find a way that you can provide a solution that your insight into that industry may not have at present. And if you think you can feel it, go for it. Don't wait, because the window could close up.

 

Yeah, anytime. Yeah, no, awesome. So can you share any like memorable success stories or moments or highlights from your journey as a entrepreneur or as a business owner?

 

Oh, sure.

Um, the I'll look probably the one of the very early ones I mentioned to you that I set this business up with the expectation of helping the thousands of tenancies Australia wide. And early on in this business, I was invited to give a talk for Ray White. I had a conference up in Queensland, they invited me to it.

 

I was naive and thought, oh, fantastic. I didn't even ask them when I when I was on. To cut a long story short, I was on the very last day after lunch just before it closed.

 

So I think it closed at 4.30. Yeah, I was the only speaker apart from the closing after lunch. So there weren't that many people who were interested in there. There probably were about 70 people still left.

 

And I thought, fantastic. Yeah, I will be able to help millions of tenants. Yeah, yeah.

 

And then I thought, oh, I am standing up there. I thought, oh, well, at least there's 70 people who are listening. And then, you know, the talk ended.

 

And two people might have said, thanks. And that was that. Went out, sat on the sun lounge, and it promptly started raining.

 

So my success was sort of, in my own mind, as I stepped up to the podium to give this, give the talk, and then the phone never, you know, I might have gotten two or three calls from Ray White in five years. But the bottom line is that I understood what I was saying about the residential tenancy market. Years later, they changed the law about the Residential Tenancy Act and regulation, at least in Victoria and in other states regarding the presence or absence of mould and whether or not the landlord is in a legal position to rent that out.

 

So I'm pleased to see that that's happened. That's happened completely independent to my work. But nevertheless, I've been an advocate for healthy buildings.

 

And, you know, mould free as much as that is possible. So I guess I was pleased about that. But a couple of years after that, I was invited by the Australian Department of Health to work alongside the contractor for the area of government that was responsible for Nauru and Manus Island for the detainees.

 

And I jumped at the opportunity because I thought, fantastic, I want to see how serious this issue is. I was led to believe that this was affecting mainly the staff, to a lesser extent, the detainees. And I thought, fantastic, I can bring my skills to assist all of these individuals.

 

And I was incredibly proud when I did that work and finally submitted the report and expected there to be a, in a sense, both a humanitarian effort to protect the health of the detainees, but also a practical, commercial, corporate approach to maintaining the health and welfare and safety of the stakeholders, which included psychological services, medical support, guard support, and general maintenance and contractors involved with the building maintenance. Unfortunately, for a number of reasons that are also in the public domain regarding Nauru, the outcome of my report, shall we say, was maybe not implemented in the manner that I had recommended. And so I am aware that sometimes, even with full evidentiary support for your claims and positions, that sometimes the implications of lab findings are such that the stakeholders are unwilling to respond to those or respond to those in a way that is completely outside your control.

 

And you're unaware of what information may have occurred behind the scenes that you're just not privy to. But I was very, very proud of that because that gave me a huge insight to how information falls through the cracks and, in a sense, could possibly, it could be argued, deliberately falls through the cracks. So that's not lost on me.

 

And I get along very well with lawyers and barristers who also have that same argumentative streak, wanting to understand all sides of an argument before they act on it, and also wanting to be very confident that the logical steps in reasoning are supported by the facts. And I approach my work like that, they approach their work like that, and many businesses don't. And so I guess you just have to be aware that there are some bad actors out there.

 

I'm not blaming the Australian Government, I'm not blaming the management of Nauru completely either. I think that when there are a lot of people responsible for something, there is the potential for very clear directions to lose their momentum, certainly in consultants' reports, and that's just a fact. Yeah, fantastic.

 

Okay, one more question I would ask you regards to looking ahead, what are your goals and aspirations at the moment for your business and your contributions to the field of biological health?

 

I'm going through a process of transformation both personally and professionally at this point in time. I have held on to most aspects of this business with an iron fist for the last 12 or 15 years, in that I'm over everything. I know what emails are coming in, I know what calls are being made, I know what marketing initiatives are being done.

 

It's unsustainable. The growth of social media and the requirement to produce content to explain, educate, impart wisdom, offer hope, and offer practical solutions and takeaways is more important than ever. It cannot remain in textbooks, standards, books, even blogs.

 

There is a need to synthesise messaging that is short and can be delivered to as wide an audience as possible. So, on the one hand, maybe four or five years ago, social media was a voluntarily opt-in, or we all had our preferred platforms. Really, at this point in time, whilst individuals may have preferred platforms, they all operate as a diffusion mechanism out into the public, and it is incumbent on anyone in business to take advantage of these platforms, find out how they work, why they work.

 

You don't necessarily have to have a massive audience, but you do need to be a player, and you've got to contribute. You might have like 500 people on a TikTok account. That might be fine.

 

In those 500 people, you might get two or three leads a year that turn into clients. That's fine. You're still talking to 500 potential people, or five people.

 

It's like if you've got the worst possible news of your life, you'd want to exit that environment and talk to someone. So, my view of social media, publishing in general, media, is that it's all about versions and interpretations of people's problems and how other people have solved them. So, they're all stories, essentially, but it becomes really pointy when it is your story, when you need the solution, when your relative is unwell.

 

You need a person to give you help, and that help really needs to be genuine. Science has always provided that, or at least in my view, has always provided that platform, a pedestal of reliability that will be solution-focused. So, it always comes back to linking the science with the problem and then working out where the individual's emotional contribution to their problem can also be entailed and supported.

 

Yeah, and it takes a big chunk of your time, isn't it, compared to your normal daily thing? Now, all of a sudden, what we've got to do with socials is like a hole, and you've got to pivot and go, okay, now I've got to do this. This is going to take extra time. Look, this is why you have to love what you're doing.

 

I think that working for yourself is a seven-day love affair. Essentially, you are following your own curiosity. When I get angry and annoyed because something's not working, it's usually due to my own limitations, due to time constraints that are imposed on me, usually by other people, having other stakeholders to be mindful of and fit into their schedules as well.

 

But you've got to work all the time. If you genuinely want to connect with people, it's best to ignore them completely if you're you have a, in a sense, you've got a contract with them to follow through and do the right thing for them. Imagine if it was your family member.

 

Sometimes people who are, you know, I can tell solicitors who ring me up a mile away because they often, well, they don't tell me their profession, they don't tell me their name, but they have fine detail regarding why their wife or son or daughter is experiencing problems. I can hear the reservation in their voice, but I can also hear the cry for, please treat me fairly. I'm not going to persevere past this call if you do the wrong thing.

 

I'm trying to gauge whether you're the person who can help me or whether you're just trying to sell me something. So I'm very mindful of that. You know, even today, I went and did a second inspection this morning that was for 64 townhouses.

 

All of them had problems. And I said to the people responsible, I said, look, we can start testing, but I said, you need an outcome. So I said, I need you to talk to the following individuals first, because that's how you are going to work out what the solution to your problem is.

 

I said, if we do it from me, I said, that will become a nightmare for everyone. I said, I'm very glad that you called me early in the problem, because at least you've got experts on hand. But I said, you don't want to start with me.

 

You want to start with someone who can provide some better guidance regarding the practical steps that need to be considered. So sometimes I need to talk myself out of business. I don't have any problem doing that, because there's always more, unfortunately, with buildings.

 

But I'm quick to do that. If I lose work, I don't care. I don't want question marks.

 

I don't want to be thinking at night that, oh, boy, you know, I wish I'd said that and help that person. You know, so, yeah. It's got to move on.

 

Yeah. So, okay. Now, I know you're busy seven days a week.

So when you're not working, what tickles your fancy? What do you do when you're not working? Tell me, what do you enjoy doing?

 

Okay, look, a couple of years ago, I would have said, oh, you know, I like doing social media posts. I like writing blog posts. You know, to be frank with you, I don't necessarily love doing any of that all the time now, because it's not like I'll write a blog post and can forget about it.

 

And I only have to do like five a year or something. You know, if you could write a blog post every day, that'd be fantastic, because that makes you a thought leader on that. And that would be a career in itself.

 

So what do I like doing? I've got to admit, I like reality TV. Yeah. Reality TV is good.

 

It's brainless, mindless, and I like watching other people's stories. I don't like drama. I'm surprised that they have so much drama.

 

So I'm a bit of an avid TV watcher. Yeah, look, I go to the gym every day. I have for coming up to a decade now.

 

I take my personal health and fitness very seriously. I was a hopeless sports kid at school, did not like sport. I was the kid, you know, wagging school to have a surreptitious cigarette when, you know, people used to do that sort of thing.

 

But I've gotten into fitness as an adult and take it very seriously. Obviously, it's a selfish agenda there. I think that maintaining some level of physical fitness has the potential to allow you to live longer.

 

I'm a strong advocate for the use of nutritional supplements to improve your overall immune system balance. I read very widely on proactive life extension methodologies and technologies. I'm very curious about all of that.

 

I think, you know, as you age, obviously, your wisdom improves. And it's a shame to think that there is a, you know, an hourglass counting down the days that you'll be able to continue doing what you do. You know, I'm incredibly mindful of the fact that there is a window of opportunity to get key ideas across to people and that I've got a real responsibility to do that.

 

So, yeah, you know, I like to take some time off now and again. Yeah. But even so, apart from some some core time to that would definitely be considered relaxation.

 

The rest of it, I can't wait to get out of bed every day and just get into it. Every day is different. Yeah.

 

And there's a new group of people who have chosen me to try and help. So I look forward to that challenge. Fantastic.

 

Well, thanks so much, Cameron, for coming on board. I really appreciate it. It's been an awesome insight into Biological Health Services and we're going to be adding the link to your business on here as well as your personal page.

 

No worries. Thank you again. I really appreciate your time.

 

And I'm sure we'll have you back again talking about the beauty industry and the body art industry as well. So I'm very excited. So thank you again, mate.

 

I really appreciate it. Thank you. Thanks, Richard.

All right. See you, mate. Bye now.